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rose
Omega Dog
Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 206
Location: Italy
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 Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| rowynruffians wrote: |
Cardiac disease is pretty rampant in this breed, would love to speak with the breeder who said it is not. I assume they have many doppler normals under their belts, lol. Or is it that they say this to avoid testing altogether? Some breeders will use the idea that if a test is not a 100% guarantee, then they are not going to screen as an excuse to avoid the whole testing situation completely. It is much EASIER to ignore the problems and breed the dogs you want to breed than begin to get tough and remove dogs from your gene pool.
Jean |
The breeder that told me this is in the Ukraine and contacted me about buying some dogs she had available. I asked her about health testing and the only thing she does is the ataxia. Now some of the dogs in the pedigree had health testing, but not the ones she owned. She also wanted 1000 euro for an unhealth tested dog (about 1500 usd) and i think that is too much for an untested dog.
Though the test may not be 100 % something is better than nothing and at least you should be able to find an issue if the dog is asymptomatic.
I also understand that equivical is an ofa term but what else do you call it when you are not sure or cant find the problem? If the cardiologists says somethings not right but we are not sure, you cant look at the info on a disease sine you would have no idea what to look for if you cant find a problem. And not all cardios agree on the normal, abnormal, eq ratings anyways. That is why I veiw it as a maybe and why i would retest until the issue is either found or cleared.
I also find it difficult to locate breeders who are actually health testing on this side of the ocean. I am lucky enough to be centrally surrounded by doctors who can do them on my dogs. |
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shadyblueamstaffs
Alpha Dog
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 3361
Location: Missouri USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| rowynruffians wrote: |
| shadyblueamstaffs wrote: |
| rowynruffians wrote: |
| shadyblueamstaffs wrote: |
Jean, Are your posts directed towards me pertaining to me using the term equivocal? I have my results that were found from the echo/dopplers on my dogs.  |
No, to the original poster, but also to breeders in general. If you have your results, then you know what heart disease you are working with I would assume and can recognize whether or not that second generation has the same or a diff set of issues. "Equivocal" doesn't really mean anything in terms of breeding other than a dog has been found to be abnormal. I would have said "my bitch with a slight murmur who was diagnosed with SAS...." or something to that effect, versus equivocal. It is a meaningless term to a breeder. |
Saying equivocal is just habit forming. At least for me it is. |
Ugh, too bad that you have had to say it so much that it is habit-forming, lol! |
Haha, Funny Lady today!
I think alot of breeders are trying to go in the right direction with heart testing. Although you speak about eliminating heart issues, That could bring us right back to the scenario of drastically shrinking our gene pool. If every breeder started heart testing today, and every breeder eliminated every heart issue without even thinking about it. Don't you think that could have a major effect on the gene pool as a whole? Then to have all clears, but the way the heart disease is passed along, we could have just as many problem crop back up and then where do we go once we already eliminated a good portion of the gene pool? |
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Cicero
Shamans
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 540
Location: GA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Jean's posts (the factual, not personal part) I agree with. There are so many heart problems out there that there is no simple answer. SAS, for example, I believe has 6 different genes involved so there is no telling who has what and how long it has been there. I think that is why the ataxia test was such a wonderful thing, we actually know who is a silent affected or a carrier, unlike with the dogs. I know someone who bred an SAS female to the same clear male twice. Out of both litters only 1 puppy was affected.
We pretty much don't keep/breed murmurs unless they are VERY slight and innocent. I know people who breed mitrals, but from my own research I wouldn't do it unless the mitral is a result of old age or excessive stress. It is just easier to breed clears together then to add in an unknown.
If you research things a little more you will start to see certain dogs and pedigrees that pass things on more than others. This is a big reason why people advocate line/inbreeding - to find these things and eliminate them.
The other thing is that people have only been doing hearts for about 10 years now. I am sure some did them before, but that is when a lot of people really started testing. Hips have been popular to test for a lot longer. |
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shadyblueamstaffs
Alpha Dog
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 3361
Location: Missouri USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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OH I agree with most of Jean's post as well. Except for the part about getting tough and takeing several dogs out of the gene pool. Because any other health issue being discussed and she is right there saying we should not take several dogs out of the gene pool in a hasty manner. It needs to be done responsibly.
If we go around removeing any and all heart issues, even minor ones. Then what happens if another genetic disease is found in our breed. We already cut our gene pool back trying to eliminate heart disease, that we then have no where to go.
Also the whole our dogs don't die from hip dysplasia thing, I'm not buying that one either. That just sounds like someone justifying there logic for using bad hips in a breeding program. Maybe the dogs don't die from bad hips, but I have seen how it affects the quality of their life.
If the people of the past were so set on eliminating hip disease, then why do we still have hip problems now?
None of that has even started in on elbows. That is one area the europeans surely have us americans beat in. Elbow testing is something that is done regularly over in europe. Not so much here though, even though elbows are just as much of a problem as hips.
Oh and just for the record, this is not me trying to force my beliefs on anyone, just merely putting things out there for discussion. |
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Cicero
Shamans
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 540
Location: GA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Lol, I am actually of the opinion that linebreeding/inbreeding should be done very sparingly so that it is available when the breed's numbers go down. The way I see it is that if I have tightly bred peds and the breeds popularity goes down I may have to face breeding to a crappy dog because that is the only outcross I can find. BUT, if I keep my lines looser then if the numbers go down I still have at least a decade of breeding I can do in my own yard without having serious issues from breeding too tight. |
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X-Pertise
Scouts
Joined: 08 Oct 2008
Posts: 419
Location: NY, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| shadyblueamstaffs wrote: |
OH I agree with most of Jean's post as well. Except for the part about getting tough and taking several dogs out of the gene pool. Because any other health issue being discussed and she is right there saying we should not take several dogs out of the gene pool in a hasty manner. It needs to be done responsibly.
If we go around removing any and all heart issues, even minor ones. Then what happens if another genetic disease is found in our breed. We already cut our gene pool back trying to eliminate heart disease, that we then have no where to go.
Also on the whole, our dogs don't die from hip dysplasia thing, I'm not buying that one either. That just sounds like someone justifying there logic for using bad hips in a breeding program. Maybe the dogs don't die from bad hips, but I have seen how it affects the quality of their life.
If the people of the past were so set on eliminating hip disease, then why do we still have hip problems now?
None of that has even started in on elbows. That is one area the Europeans surely have us Americans beat in. Elbow testing is something that is done regularly over in Europe. Not so much here though, even though elbows are just as much of a problem as hips.
Oh and just for the record, this is not me trying to force my beliefs on anyone, just merely putting things out there for discussion. |
I have health tested and linebred from my very first litter. I have never had to remove a dog from the gene pool for heart disease, but I have removed dogs for mild hip dysplasia/lax joints. I believe we still have this problem now because people are still breeding dogs that have hip dysplasia. It is my belief that you will never eliminate a genetic problem from the gene pool if you continue breeding on it. I have always tested for elbow dysplasia from the beginning as well. Some might consider me a health testing freak. In addition, I have always tested for CERF, thyroid and now ataxia. Although I have not submitted separate xrays to OFA, I do look at the patellas on the hip xrays. It costs a small fortune to do all these tests on all my dogs, but I think it is worthwhile to be certain you are breeding the healthiest dogs possible.
I do linebreed. In order not to breed yourself into a genetic corner, I think it is necessary to make your breeding plan generations in advance. As advised, I began with an outcross in my foundation. Then I used not only my own foundation dog, but a linebred dog belonging to someone else in my second generation. I also froze semen that I will be going back to generations later. That way, you know how long you can breed within the line and what outcross you will use well in advance. Part of the plan is to know what dogs will you go back to within the original line with that outcrossed puppy. In this way, you can continue linebreeding for generations without needing to add another outcross. I think this plan will probably work well for me to the end of my breeding career.
I believe that nothing is being removed from the gene pool with such a plan. In fact, it is preserving an original line and eliminating the continuation of any genetic problems that have cropped up along the way. I know that my choices may not be popular beliefs with other breeders, but it works for me. I do not believe that the occasional elimination of what I consider dogs with faulty genes from my gene pool will in any way decrease the gene pool of the breed. If anything, it will provide healthy dogs on which to breed. I cannot find fault with producing a litter of show quality pups as compared to producing a litter of one show quality pup and the remainder being pet quality. In my opinion, every breeder needs to breed up in order to create a healthy gene pool in the breed so that no dog must be eliminated due to genetic defects. |
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shadyblueamstaffs
Alpha Dog
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 3361
Location: Missouri USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Jean, after receiving the cardio results from the grandaughter to my girl.
Granddaughter and grandmother do NOT share the same heart issue. |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 3808
Location: va
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| I say BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH with heart issues. You have MANY people out there bragging about hearts because they past but leave out they have murmurs.... Most vets will past so called slight murmur and then it is NEVER told and it is just bragged about haveing a passing heart. At least with a eq heart result the TRUTH is out.. LOL It is always something. |
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rose
Omega Dog
Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 206
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Meadowbrooks wrote: |
| I say BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH with heart issues. You have MANY people out there bragging about hearts because they past but leave out they have murmurs.... Most vets will past so called slight murmur and then it is NEVER told and it is just bragged about haveing a passing heart. At least with a eq heart result the TRUTH is out.. LOL It is always something. |
Well, you cant control what everyone else does. And just because other people dont tell when they have a murmer doesnt mean that they should be followed. Nor does it mean that we shouldnt do all we can to understand and to be informed of the issues.
Knowledge leads to better breeding decisons and we cant ignore the information because of what other people do or dont do. |
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rowynruffians
Omega Dog
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 270
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| shadyblueamstaffs wrote: |
| rowynruffians wrote: |
| shadyblueamstaffs wrote: |
| rowynruffians wrote: |
| shadyblueamstaffs wrote: |
| Jean, Are your posts directed towards me pertaining to me using the term equivocal? I have my results that were found from the echo/dopplers on my dogs. |
No, to the original poster, but also to breeders in general. If you have your results, then you know what heart disease you are working with I would assume and can recognize whether or not that second generation has the same or a diff set of issues. "Equivocal" doesn't really mean anything in terms of breeding other than a dog has been found to be abnormal. I would have said "my bitch with a slight murmur who was diagnosed with SAS...." or something to that effect, versus equivocal. It is a meaningless term to a breeder. |
Saying equivocal is just habit forming. At least for me it is. |
Ugh, too bad that you have had to say it so much that it is habit-forming, lol! |
Haha, Funny Lady today!
I think alot of breeders are trying to go in the right direction with heart testing. Although you speak about eliminating heart issues, That could bring us right back to the scenario of drastically shrinking our gene pool. If every breeder started heart testing today, and every breeder eliminated every heart issue without even thinking about it. Don't you think that could have a major effect on the gene pool as a whole? Then to have all clears, but the way the heart disease is passed along, we could have just as many problem crop back up and then where do we go once we already eliminated a good portion of the gene pool? |
Sorry, lol. I am just flabbergasted, really.
I would HOPE that we do not have such heart issues that our gene pool would be drastically cut if you did not use bad hearts!! I have been hearing the arguement that an equivocal is no big deal and that our dogs don't really have heart issues. Now its swinging around to not taking heart issues out because there are so many we may bottleneck the breed? This is not just directed at you, but the board really.
Cicero----this is CLEARLY not the same as ataxia!! Lordy, there are potentially 25% (or more) of our dogs carrying the gene for ataxia. If that stat is found to be correct, that is a HUGE number of our dogs! Are we saying that heart disease is THAT big of an issue?! Also, breeding bad hearts and breeding ataxia is not the same genetically. I KNOW exactly what I can expect when I breed in terms of ataxia. It is easy to test the pups and go from there. There is no such test for cardiac disease.
If hearts ARE such a huge issue, then why the heck not work away from it rather than towards it? Why use equivocals?
I think people WANT to use a particular dog, they therefore justify themselves in some way. Whether it be Larry with his blah blah blah theory or someone else saying we might bottleneck the gene pool. Those are excuses, IMO. If you are actually using an equivocal in a responsible manner, then you KNOW what is causing the murmur because you have taken the steps to find the problem. Then you are not only choosing a clear stud dog, you are DOPPLERING that dog to make sure he does not carry the same fault! Who here is doing that? Who is breeding equivocals without knowing why they are equivocal? That is just plain sticking your neck in the sand.
You know, the first two breeders I saw openly use bad hearts and make these crappy sorts of excuses are two puppy millers who really have done nothing for our breed except create trouble and lots of inferior dogs. And both of them will STILL list dogs that they have bred that had SAS or whatever that never produced it....because of course they knew this because they kept breeding them. Funny thing, I hear the most complaints about hearts coming from those who have their dogs. Of course, one of them coined the whole "exploding" AmStaff heart BS and spent ALOT of time talking about it, but doing little to select against it. Unfortunately, they seem to have set a precedent that equivocal is to be considered normal and now no one is paying attention to it. Well, that is going to come back and bite our entire breed in the azz people, and I think its ridiculous. |
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rowynruffians
Omega Dog
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 270
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Meadowbrooks wrote: |
| I say BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH with heart issues. You have MANY people out there bragging about hearts because they past but leave out they have murmurs.... Most vets will past so called slight murmur and then it is NEVER told and it is just bragged about haveing a passing heart. At least with a eq heart result the TRUTH is out.. LOL It is always something. |
What's the truth with the equivocals? I don't see anything in that report that says what disease process is going on. And if everyone has the attitude that equivocal is no big deal, it WILL become a big deal. Apparently in some kennels, it is already a big deal. |
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rowynruffians
Omega Dog
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 270
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| shadyblueamstaffs wrote: |
Jean, after receiving the cardio results from the grandaughter to my girl.
Granddaughter and grandmother do NOT share the same heart issue. |
That's too bad, because you now have two different sets of heart defect issues that could crop up. |
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shadyblueamstaffs
Alpha Dog
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 3361
Location: Missouri USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| rowynruffians wrote: |
| shadyblueamstaffs wrote: |
Jean, after receiving the cardio results from the grandaughter to my girl.
Granddaughter and grandmother do NOT share the same heart issue. |
That's too bad, because you now have two different sets of heart defect issues that could crop up. |
Yes, I would have been more relieved if they did share the same issue. |
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rowynruffians
Omega Dog
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 270
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Cicero wrote: |
| Lol, I am actually of the opinion that linebreeding/inbreeding should be done very sparingly so that it is available when the breed's numbers go down. The way I see it is that if I have tightly bred peds and the breeds popularity goes down I may have to face breeding to a crappy dog because that is the only outcross I can find. BUT, if I keep my lines looser then if the numbers go down I still have at least a decade of breeding I can do in my own yard without having serious issues from breeding too tight. |
Huh? That makes no sense to me. If no one is doing linebreeding/inbreeding, then all the dogs eventually become genetically MORE similar because we are a closed gene pool. This is exactly how we lost so many of our lines in the 70's and 80s. This is also how you spread deleterious genes throughout all the dogs so that when you finally run into the problem and need a diff direction, you will have nowhere to go and no way to figure out where it came from. I think you just breed what you like to what you like and *beep* with the ped, lol. Just say it straight up.
If the breed's numbers go down due to decreased popularity, YOU won't be breeding too much either so it isn't going to matter what is in your backyard! What are you anticipating, armageddon? Because if BSL hits our breed and shuts it down, you go too. |
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Cicero
Shamans
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 540
Location: GA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| rowynruffians wrote: |
| Cicero wrote: |
| Lol, I am actually of the opinion that linebreeding/inbreeding should be done very sparingly so that it is available when the breed's numbers go down. The way I see it is that if I have tightly bred peds and the breeds popularity goes down I may have to face breeding to a crappy dog because that is the only outcross I can find. BUT, if I keep my lines looser then if the numbers go down I still have at least a decade of breeding I can do in my own yard without having serious issues from breeding too tight. |
Huh? That makes no sense to me. If no one is doing linebreeding/inbreeding, then all the dogs eventually become genetically MORE similar because we are a closed gene pool. This is exactly how we lost so many of our lines in the 70's and 80s. This is also how you spread deleterious genes throughout all the dogs so that when you finally run into the problem and need a diff direction, you will have nowhere to go and no way to figure out where it came from. I think you just breed what you like to what you like and *beep* with the ped, lol. Just say it straight up.
If the breed's numbers go down due to decreased popularity, YOU won't be breeding too much either so it isn't going to matter what is in your backyard! What are you anticipating, armageddon? Because if BSL hits our breed and shuts it down, you go too. |
Lol, glad to see people are still taking it to extremes...
I don't know of one linebred line that is 100% healthy. Any good breeder does research into the dogs they breed. If you research the line, or lines, you are working with then you know what to expect. I am starting to think we are not normal outcrossers because we actually do homework about diseases and traits in a line, talk to the breeders who work with and outcross to those lines, ect. We also limit the lines we use, we don't just breed to phenotype. There is no blindness here Jean, lol. We can tell you the good, bad, and ugly about any of the "lines"/kennels we have worked with and knew about it all before breeding to those dogs.
I also didn't say don't linebreed, I said it's stupid to breed yourself into a corner for no reason. Quality can drastically decrease without population doing so leading to a decreased gene pool (as I won't breed to a pet and hope the "genes click up").
ETA - According to Richard Gray it was lack of interest that made the Ruffian numbers small during the 80's although he mentions that he lost his stock due to a virus, not genetic disaster. http://www.cruisinkennels.com/ruffian_history.htm
| Quote: |
During the decade of the 80's I had few dogs and a smaller market. The Ruffian line was down to about 25 dogs of the purest blood. While Hendrix and *beep* still had a few ( purest of Ruffians) It was obvious that their plans lay elsewhere. I knew there were others, but where? The answer came at a STCA specialty held In Louisville Ky. In the Mid 80's. |
Last edited by Cicero on Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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