 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
shadyblueamstaffs
Alpha Dog
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1214
Location: Missouri USA
|
 Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: |
  |
|
| rowynruffians wrote: |
| I would think you would appreciate the work that went into the dogs behind your dogs, considering you are reaping the benefits of other people's work and selective process. |
I am very appreciative of the care that has been put into breeding the dogs behind my dogs. If you talk to someone that actually knows me, then you can find this out. I was taught that untill I breed three generations of my own dogs with my knowledge than all the credit goes to the breeders before me.
| rowynruffians wrote: |
| Why get up in arms about the pure Ruffian dogs? They form the backbone of the dogs I see on your website. |
When did I get up in arms about the ruffian dogs, I asked how you knew your line(the ruffian line) was one of the best for hips, I never said it was the best or worst. I love alot of the ruffian dogs. I still would like to have a pure ruffian bitch in the future, but I have not found the right one yet.
Ya know Jean, you act like I don't know what I am talking about, I have done tons of research, I like to pick the brains of people that have a passion for amstaffs. I love to learn new things, I will never know all there is to know, so I will continue to learn.
You don't know me, you don't know how I deal with puppy buyers. My website is not the end all. There is alot more conversating that goes on and yes I do explain as much as I can to any puppy buyer.
I rarely place dogs in show homes. I hardly ever let a puppy go with breeding rights. I would never say that most of my litter is show potential. How many pups out of your litter have you considered show potential at such an early age? Because I read only one that is a pet at this time, so does that mean the rest are show potential?
As for the people that sign my contract, if I don't feel comfortable with someone, then I won't sell them a puppy. I don't sell puppies to everyone that is interested. I turn down so many people, and you know the worst part about that, is that those people are still going to find amstaffs, and thats where the puppymills thrive.
| rowynruffians wrote: |
| Shadyblue: I don't really understand some of your comments after surfing your site. Most of the dogs in your peds that are health tested are pure Ruffian dogs, and your dogs descend from that. The outcrosses in there are by and large not health tested or didn't pass. And you also have some dogs that have NO health testing for 4 generations. Point being, how do you GUARANTEE puppies out of that? I understand that some people provide a guarantee clause to assure the buyers that they will have some recourse should a problem occur. But the REALITY of the situation is that you know next to nothing about the genetics of those puppies and what they may or may not develop. |
Jean, I am well aware of what I have in my yard, thanks for refresher course. Just a FYI there is one dog here that does not have health testing in his first three generations. One dog, and he is retired, NEUTERED but still scheduled to get his hips and elbows done this week. His heart needs dopplered, his heart did not pass and have I hidden that from anyone??? It's on my site, it's on the OFA site, have you posted all your results that did not pass????
I never said I was going to guarantee anything from the dogs with that pedigree, for anyone interested the dogs Jean are referring to are Shady, then the offspring Ares and Zeus. Shady is neutered and Ares and Zeus have never been bred.
Thank you Larry and Craig for understanding, the guarantee is all about standing behind what I breed. I take responsibility for what I breed.
Jean, you don't know me and I don't know you, but I honestly feel that if you were concerned with something, you would have came to me and emailed me personally and asked me to clarify anything you had questions about. But instead you resorted to the message board way out. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rowynruffians
Puppy
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 95
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Uhm, I was not making this an "us" against "them" thing, nor was I personally attacking you. I did address you at some points, but I was not nasty about it, I was questioning.
I have an opinion, you have an opinion. If you want to be defensive about it, that's your right. I didn't say that you didn't "back" your dogs, nor did I say that I don't "back" my own dogs. Its the rhetoric I question, versus the reality of dog breeding.
My opinion was that there are lots of websites out there that go on and on about complex guarantees and contracts, when in the world of dog breeding, there is very little you can guarantee. You can only do the best you can with integrity and honesty. (I am NOT saying shadyblue, that you don't so this, this is a general statement of my own opinion. ) I feel that it gives buyers false comfort that they are getting a dog that will most likely never contract any problems.
End of discussion for me, I have said more than enough, LOL. Oh except one more thing  . Shadyblue was speculating about the percentages of pure Ruffian dogs that pass health tests versus numbers of "pure" dogs out there. I am not sure what the percentage of passing is for this line alone, but it is not true that there are alot of pure Ruffian dogs. I believe there were 4 "pure" litters bred last year in the US, give or take one. At the average National specialty, there are generally 8-10 "pure" Ruffian dogs, versus the 200 or so other dogs present. There are alot more in Europe now than here, though we have more diverse peds in the US. Many fewer American breeders, and the breeders of "pure" dogs here don't breed very often. They are really not very prevalent in the grand scheme of AmStafs, I think they make up a single digit fraction in US dogs. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1680
Location: va
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well this got deep.lol
What I am saying is, I don't tell buyers or owners that their dogs aren't going to ever have an issue.. I been around long enough to know you can't control that.. I think you can take steps to help the percentages. I let them know if anything happens that I will be here to help them out... I see nothing wrong with that.. JMO |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
fffstaffs
Omega Dog
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Tennessee
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I agree with Jean there is no way to guarantee a dog won't come down with dysplasia, ataxia, heart problems, etc because it is behind all the lines. Howevery that doesn't mean you can't stand behind your dogs to some point. I mean if the buyer injures the pup and that is why the hips are bad then that should never be the breeders fault so I think every case has to be considered on a individual basis. I have know of dogs that were bred both being either ofag or ofae and still produce pups with bad hips...........I have never seen a amstaff needing to be put down due to bad hips most of the time by the time their hips are bothering them they are old enough to have arthritis anyway.....I am not going to intentionally breed a effected dog and cause a problem within my dogs but I think this guaranteeing it for life is going overboard and so much of the time not all the time the people making these promises are here today and gone tomorrow. Not pointing fingers just my opinion |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lea
Puppy
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 94
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
To address the original question, to me it would all depend on where in the pedigree affected dog is. Is it one of the parents? If a sire had a bad heart, I think its worth testing pups and/or letting people know about the potential problem. With hips, its harder. it is a polygenetic disease and there isnt much you can really do about it either way (bad hips can still give good dogs)... But hearts, yes I would inform people so that if some of those dogs are show quality they make sure to test them before breeding (of course this would go for hips also, but making sure sire hasnt passed on any of his deleterious genes would to me be of primary concern).
If the dog in question isn't a sire or dam (and both sire and dam have been tested) then I wouldn't worry too much (but it would still be of concern to me) as all of our dogs carry all kinds of deleterious genes and the best you can do is make sure that two dogs you are breeding are as healthy as you can get them. Again, hearts seem to be easier to control than hips (ie. seems to be a simple autosomal recessive inheritance mode from what I hear), so if sire and dam are healthy, that would be a huge bonus for mr.
So to me it all depends on where in the ped affected dog is...
As far as healthy hips go.... It only takes several generations of breeding exclusively good hips to significantly improve overall health. As far as my research goes, I am yet to see a line or a kennel that is in any way distinct from the rest.. But as others said, there are many things to consider when breeding dogs, and hips are definitely not the only ones.. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
StorytimeAmStaffs
Puppy
Joined: 04 Jun 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Ruther Glen, VA 22546
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think anyone buying a show puppy for a show price would be a fool to not have, not only a health guarantee, but a guarantee that pup will end up to be show quality. I also think pet people should be guaranteed that dog will be healthy with a replacement puppy if anything goes wrong. And by replacement I do not mean give the other dog back, I mean spay/neuter it and get another when you are ready. I just had someone call that has a 4 year old with cancer. I am replacing it. They paid a pet price but 4 years and that kind of heartbreak is not my idea of what they expected to buy from me. My health guarantee includes anything hereditary including hip dysplasia. If they are buying a dog to breed why would you want them to breed an unhealthy dog out of your breeding program.
I do realize there can be extenuating circumstances with hips, such as injury, diet, etc. I also realize that you can have wonderful OFA pedigrees and still get dysplastic dogs.
I had a litter where the parents, grandparents and great grands were all OFA good and only 2 of the pups passed OFA. Go figure!! But it happens in other breeds that have been OFAing a lot longer than amstaffs all the time. Sometimes crap just happens. You take responsibility and keep on going if you love the breed. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1680
Location: va
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I agree with that.. No issues here and I think alot of breeders feel this way.. Like I stated. I worry more about my pet homes and friends that I make then my own dogs that I am keeping for myself. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
