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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1680
Location: va
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 Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: Standard and AST |
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I want to know other opinions on this topic.
Do you think the Amstaff was here and then the standard or was the standard first?
It is my opinion that they came up with the standard for the AST to be developed to> JMO |
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fffstaffs
Omega Dog
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Remember they were American Pit Bull Terriers first and then they had to adapt a AKC standard for the American Staffordshire Terrier for them to be accepted |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1680
Location: va
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| The word adapt isn't the word I would use.. I would use changed since the standard was changed and was written before the amstaff was here. Yes, I understand where they came from but I also believe when they changed the standard they change the breed and went a different direction. There wasn't a breed that the standard was built for or should I say from because the APBT already had their standard and the AST was different. So I don't understand when people make comments saying that we are going down hill with this breed. HOW? The breed had to be developed to the standard that was written for it.. Should we be there after all these years.. Yes we should but I don't think we was there and then went backwards.. JMO. |
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Skylar
Pack Members
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 343
Location: Everywhere
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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From what i can see from the written history... I think standard was created before AST because there was no AST until the standard was created..
But then there may be some APBT at the time that did look like AST, maybe those dogs helped created the standard and more APBT were formed into AST thereafter? They may have took some characters of Old APBT and then add more details for the standard where owners/breeders had to follow those details to change APBT into AST at later stage.
What i am confused about is that i have read somewhere from the kennel club that AST was SBT and they become larger then SBT. 
Maybe they are trying to say that they both were same dogs without breed name at the time? |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1680
Location: va
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Well that is how I understand it.. they took a number of APBT and took their best parts from each on and made the standard.. So To me the dog to fit that new standard wasn't developed yet.. JMO So Can you breed to the the AST standard and get the dogs of the past? To me you can't because the APBT had their own standard of the time and the AST was made differently.. |
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Skylar
Pack Members
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 343
Location: Everywhere
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: |
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I don't think you can get AST back into APBT if AST's line was AST for 72+ years... But there are some that you can get back like eye colors. But what you can get some of AST back to APBT is to breed dual reg AST/APBT with single reg APBT...
But lets say without the standard... Is it possible to change Modern APBT into AST? why i am saying this is because that's where they came from..
But more confusly.. was it only APBT that made AST?
I don't understand why there are two reg that can be dual registered at this time when there are two different standard.... I would understand if it was in 1936 but why now? |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1680
Location: va
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Skylar wrote: |
I don't think you can get AST back into APBT if AST's line was AST for 72+ years... But there are some that you can get back like eye colors. But what you can get some of AST back to APBT is to breed dual reg AST/APBT with single reg APBT...
But lets say without the standard... Is it possible to change Modern APBT into AST? why i am saying this is because that's where they came from..
But more confusly.. was it only APBT that made AST?
I don't understand why there are two reg that can be dual registered at this time when there are two different standard.... I would understand if it was in 1936 but why now? |
Yes, they took a number of APBT and made the standard for the AST.. That is my understanding. So how could the standard not be first and if that is the case it would take years to produce the breed to fit that standard. JMO |
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Skylar
Pack Members
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 343
Location: Everywhere
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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we're on the same boat in some theory.. i Do think that AST standard was created first before the AST was formed. All based on selection of few APBT they likes and made it into AST standard for others to follow.
Was AST category as SBT once? Just asking because most of you know more then me... Because i was looking through history and found that it was mention that AST was SBT but was a lot bigger then SBT so they change the name to AST because they no longer are alike in height and size? They also kept mentioning "AST disant English cousin SBT" Tell me if this is not true. Would love to know your view on this. Will try and find where i found this info and post it here so you can tell me whats your point of view |
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Skylar
Pack Members
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 343
Location: Everywhere
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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I found one website about this.. and many more info on it (link below)
"The American Staffordshire Terrier is an AKC construction which used the APBT (actually a Colby bred APBT named Primo was used) as a guide and they became registerable in 1936. The very first dog registered was a pit bull by the name of Wheeler's Black Dinah and several Colby pit bulls were dual registered as both the Am Staff and the APBT, even Petey the Pit Bull from the lil Rascals Comedies had a name in the Am Staff record books. Colby dregistered his dogs for a few generations and then went back exclusively to the APBT with the ADBA registry. Any pit bull dog in those days that matched the breed standard as written was allowed to be registered with the AKC for that period when books were first opened, then the stud books were closed and no more "outsiders" were allowed. (Colby's book of the American Pit Bull Terrier)
http://www.ascpbr.com/breedinfo/breedinfo.html
Also found one that i was confuse about AST was SBT link below...
"The Staffordshire Bull Terrier was developed in England for the purpose of dog fighting, and was introduced to America during the late 19th century to compete in the same sport. The Americans bred a larger Pit Bull than the English, and the American Staffordshire Terrier quickly took shape as a distinct breed. Though the breed was often employed as an all purpose farm dog during the early 20th century, its legacy has always been that of a gladiator.
The breed was recognized by the American Kennel Club in 1936 as the Staffordshire Terrier; in 1972 the name was changed to American Staffordshire Terrier to more clearly distinguish the dog from its English cousin"
(link below you will need to copy whole and then paste it onto the address bar to be able to view it)
http://www.breederretriever.com/dog-breed-history/93/american-staffordshire-terrier-(pit-bull).php
Another one... click on the link below and goes to the "history" it mention that APBT and AST was SBT?
http://www.iams.co.uk/breed/src/uk/display_match.php?breed=amestate&from=List |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1680
Location: va
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Good post Skylar. I have read that aswell.. And when the new AST standard was put in, those APBT that was registered to get things started would have been incorrect to the AST standard.. Probably why the left as you stated.
A lot of people say you need to know the history a 100% to understand the standard. I think that is crap and history tells us that the AST was changed from the APBT but some people like to change wording around or highlight certain things to fit around their beliefs.. History is history.. They took number of dogs and form a standard. The breed changed from there..
To breed to the AST standard, can you have a correct APBT?
To breed to the APBT standard, can you have a correct AST?
NO!!!! |
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Lea
Puppy
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Meadowbrooks wrote: |
To breed to the AST standard, can you have a correct APBT?
To breed to the APBT standard, can you have a correct AST?
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Why not? Where do you exactly see the major difference in these breeds? When AST standard was written do you think they had labradors in mind? What dog did they have in mind and were aiming for, if not APBT? |
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Skylar
Pack Members
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 343
Location: Everywhere
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: |
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Hi Lea....
To tell you the truth.. i don't understand what you're talking about...
What he meant was that AST now are slighty different to APBT.. He was talking about AST following APBT standard seems impossible because AST would look wrong. like wise for APBT.
If you put APBT that match the APBT standard and AST have match the AST standard but both dogs attend the APBT show... who will win for the standard look?
If you read back carefully you will see that we are talking about standard base on some of APBT with similar Shape and created it from those dogs.. There is no mention of basing on different breed in this post. it was based on selection of APBT in 1972.
I've quote what we have been talking about in this post and hope it is clear to you...
From me
| Quote: |
| we're on the same boat in some theory.. i Do think that AST standard was created first before the AST was formed. All based on selection of few APBT they likes and made it into AST standard for others to follow |
from Meadowbrook
| Quote: |
| Yes, they took a number of APBT and made the standard for the AST.. That is my understanding. So how could the standard not be first and if that is the case it would take years to produce the breed to fit that standard. JMO |
But Lea... what do you think made the standard? If you have different opinion then i would like to hear from you explaining it bit more |
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Lea
Puppy
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: |
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I thought I was clear... Maybe not...
How do you think AST standard calls for different dog compared to APBT standard (any)? I mean details.... I would like to know which exactly part of AST standard suggests to you that these dogs ARE different to APBT and vice versa? |
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Lea
Puppy
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| what do you think made the standard? |
The idea of a perfect APBT that can be shown... |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1680
Location: va
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Lea wrote: |
| Meadowbrooks wrote: |
To breed to the AST standard, can you have a correct APBT?
To breed to the APBT standard, can you have a correct AST?
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Why not? Where do you exactly see the major difference in these breeds? When AST standard was written do you think they had labradors in mind? What dog did they have in mind and were aiming for, if not APBT? |
They surely didn't have the APBT fully in mind either since they changed the standard. Didn't allow certain colors and so on. They wanted that style because of the popularity of the breed.
Lea, I understood you just fine.. You must not understand the standard.. They are different.. For one example.. Toplines.. You cant have a correct AST topline and be correct for a APBT topline.. Go and read the topic in this section.. AKC/UKC Differences.. It is broken down.. You state a APBT that can be shown. LOL You can already show a APBT In ukc.. I don't understand that comment..
Akc wanted away from the rep of the APBT and in your thinking of wanting them to stay looking like the APBT then why didn't they use the SAME standard?? They didn't, they made a new standard for the dog to be bred to which in fact changed the history of this breed and began a new breed.. IMO
If you think you can breed to the AKC standard and have a APBT.. Then You must like incorrect AST.. IMO They aren't the same standard. PERIOD.
My dogs are AKC AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER and they are bred to The AKC standard. |
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