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amstaffylvr
Puppy
Joined: 08 May 2008
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: PennHip vs. OFA |
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| What is everyone's thoughts on doing PennHip vs. OFA? What are the results for people who do both PennHip and OFA on their dogs? Any big differences in the results? What about doing PennHip on a puppy as early as possible and then later on when the dog is fully grown? Any differences in those testing results due to age? I am thinking about PennHip'ing my puppy who is 4 months old right now but don't know if at this age that is a smart idea? |
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Lea
Puppy
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 95
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: va
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: PennHip vs. OFA |
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| amstaffylvr wrote: |
| What is everyone's thoughts on doing PennHip vs. OFA? What are the results for people who do both PennHip and OFA on their dogs? Any big differences in the results? What about doing PennHip on a puppy as early as possible and then later on when the dog is fully grown? Any differences in those testing results due to age? I am thinking about PennHip'ing my puppy who is 4 months old right now but don't know if at this age that is a smart idea? |
I do OFA just because it is cheaper and it tells me enough for my own breeding program..
For the age.. Most of the time a younger dog won't have the same reading. Alot of changes during the growth of a pup and then to a 1 yr old.
Just like OFA. You can do a dog at 6 months or 8 months and most of the time when you do it again at a year they are different. Well, what I have seen anyways. |
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OstaraK9
Puppy
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
Posts: 14
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: Re: PennHip vs. OFA |
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| amstaffylvr wrote: |
| What is everyone's thoughts on doing PennHip vs. OFA? What are the results for people who do both PennHip and OFA on their dogs? Any big differences in the results? What about doing PennHip on a puppy as early as possible and then later on when the dog is fully grown? Any differences in those testing results due to age? I am thinking about PennHip'ing my puppy who is 4 months old right now but don't know if at this age that is a smart idea? |
The problem with comparing OFA to PennHIP is that they both test for different things..
PennHIP is a test that measures and interpret hip joint laxity. It tests the tightness of the joint and how tightly the hip joint is held together.
OFA more studies the shape of the hip and the ball joint and grades how well the hip joint and the ball of the leg bone are naturally formed and fit together in the joint.. If there is enough coverage in the joint and if there are any abnormal deviations in the joint
So it's possible to have a hip joint that fits very tightly but the bone and joing may not cover well at all or vice versa.. you could have a loose hip with great coverage.
In my opinion, I like to see both tests done together to see the whole picture and I like to see them done at or around the age of 2 or at least by 16 mos or so depending on how long it takes your dog to mature physically.. Tests like this should be done after all the joints and growth plates are fully closed. |
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rowynruffians
Puppy
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 95
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: |
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While it is informative, it was written more than a decade ago by a person with a very biased opinion. Who was also not a vet, I might add (I only say that because he actually discounts some evidence on the basis that they weren't presented by a vet, but he himself is not).
I have talked to older breeders who have some of the highest percentages of OFA passing AmStaffs. They did attempt to perform PennHip testing on their dogs when it first came out and found no correlation between the good and bad OFA and the PennHipp scores. So they ditched PennHipp since it did not correlate in any predictable way to their previous selection process.
Here's the problem. Hip dysplasia may or may not be caused by laxity of the joint. A dog can have a fair amount of space there and never develop the disease. And the opposite can be true, seems to be multifactorial. When you read the research on some of the PennHipp, it talks about dogs that they scored early on and the development of dysplasia. What were they using to measure the dysplasia at that later time? Wouldn't make sense to PennHipp again, they are testing it as a tool so it would not be accurate to use as the testing device. Were they using regular xrays, looking at onset of clinical signs....I have never seen an AmStaff display clinical signs of hip dysplasia myself, so how would that be an accurate marker for our breed?
In any case, in our breed, most of the dogs early on were PennHipped when their OFA scores came back bad. So no one trusted a PennHipped dog, there was very little data on our breed and it was difficult to gauge its accuracy. I think the same holds true today. OFA has limitations in that it is fairly subjective, therefore there is a degree of innacuracy. But, there are many breeds that have GREATLY improved their hips by OFA selection alone (the AKita, for one, turned themselves around in record time).
Anyway, I am not sure about it myself. I OFA my dogs. I have had puppy buyers who want to PennHip, and I will certainly allow them to do so with their pups. But I am not sure it will make much sense yet in our breed.
Jean |
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Lea
Puppy
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: |
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It doesnt matter when the article was written. BOTH groups of people are offered to say their opinion and they ARE both valid opinions and views. Some people WILL find PennHIP more accurate or more predictable of HD development. This is why both methods are still being used.
| Quote: |
| What were they using to measure the dysplasia at that later time? |
Simple Xray of the hip will show destruction of the catrilage and bone in animals that have a disease. |
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Sagebrush
Omega Dog
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 158
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| rowynruffians wrote: |
| So they ditched PennHipp since it did not correlate in any predictable way to their previous selection process. |
I wouldn't expect it to correlate. I would look at it as a new and different tool. I find it interesting. Sometimes it correlates with OFA and sometimes it doesn't, but I don't look for it to. I wouldn't ditch it for just THAT reason; I would continue to do BOTH to try to SEE patterns over many years and generations. I would be at the forefront of being one of the first to do many dogs and generations -- just keep it up for a while and GET more data....
I think part of the problem with the whole hip dysplasia thing is that they are not doing longitudinal studies (taking dogs which were OFA'd and/or PennHIP'd at young ages and doing the SAME thing at 8 and 9 and recording any differences). OFA looks at hips and says whether they have dysplasia -- do the exact same x-ray at 8 or 9 and make the same analysis. How does it correlate with what was recorded at the younger age? In addition you also do a symptoms record of hip problems over the years, if any. But do the x-ray as well. How has THAT changed? DO the PennHIP again as well, and SEE if the laxity changes. Are there changes that occur in the hip structure as well? Again, is the dog symptomatic?
I think it would be interesting to do -- I don't know that something like this HAS been done. Years ago, at an OFA seminar, the guy said no, it hadn't been done...if OFA/PennHIP wanted this information, they might have to do it at no charge to encourage people to do it....and while many would choose not to do it, we might get enough to start seeing some answers as to what an OFA fair, good, excellent hip scores at later stages in life...
Carla |
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Lea
Puppy
Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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Personally I think PennHIP is very useful when evaluating puppies from the litter where OFA is rather useless at such a young age. Whereas I like OFA purely because its been around for a while and a lot of dogs are compared based on their OFA results, I dont think advantages of PennHIP can be ignored.
I found this short article which I think puts things into perspective and addresses some of the important questions (I think it touches on some of the points Carla raised):
"Comparative studies estimating the heritability of hip phenotype have shown the
distraction index (DI) to have higher heritability than subjective hip scores. It is encouraging that in this
study the PennHIP distraction index was not confounded by the diet and that, consistent with observed
lifelong hip phenotypes, the distraction index put all of the dogs into the OA-susceptible category. These
findings support the view that the estiomate of heritability for the distraction index is likely higher than the
subjective hip score.
Longitudinal studies, such as this one, are essential to understanding the true biological behavior of a
disease as complex as CHD. To the authors’ knowledge no similar studies have been published. Of particular
interest and importance is the observation that OA prevalence and OFA score increased linearly long after
2 years of age, the accepted convention for phenotypic expression. This understanding raises questions
about the diagnostic accuracy of the standard radiographic method of hip scoring, which is usually performed
shortly after 2 years of age. For scoring methods performed at 1 year of age, the diagnostic error
would likely be even larger. Hitherto unappreciated, these studies draw critical attention to the magnitude
of change in hip score with aging. Of dogs graded normal by OFA-type scoring at 2 years of age, 55%
became dysplastic by the end of life. Conventional subjective hip scoring at 2 years of age, therefore, underestimates
the frequency of hip dysplasia in dogs and this observation provides partial explanation for the
recognized slow progress in reducing the frequency and severity of CHD by selective breeding. There
currently is no requirement for dogs that are OFA certified at 2 years of age to undergo repeat evaluations
to validate the 2-year score. Minimally, this new data warrants a strong clinical recommendation for hip
films well beyond 2 years of age, and in the case of breeding dogs, hips should be evaluated at regular
intervals for life."
http://www.purinavets.com/files/272120_Text%20rev_27.pdf |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: va
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| It is the breeders choice on what they like. As long as one of them are being done. |
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Sagebrush
Omega Dog
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 158
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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I agree -- no one said that it WASN'T the breeder's choice.
In the past when I've had it done, I've always done BOTH (just too easy to do); then I will always have that data .... may not mean much now, but over the years it might..
Haven't done the longitudinal stuff though -- I would probably need some encouragement there...
Carla |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: va
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| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Sagebrush wrote: |
I agree -- no one said that it WASN'T the breeder's choice.
In the past when I've had it done, I've always done BOTH (just too easy to do); then I will always have that data .... may not mean much now, but over the years it might..
Haven't done the longitudinal stuff though -- I would probably need some encouragement there...
Carla |
I was giving my opinion.. I didn't say ANYONE did say that!!! |
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winmor
Omega Dog
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 221
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: |
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I have done dogs either OFA or Pennhip. I like Pennhip because you can xray a puppy at 4 months and see if you want to dump a bunch of money into it showing etc (I have never done a puppy though) My vet thinks OFA is a joke and she xrays for both. She feels that someones opinion versus scientific measuerments is obsolete. She believes the scores can be used as a beneficial breeding tool. Also there are more than just one view of the hips submitted...actually there are three. Now that I work for a vet that does OFA I will probably use it again as well due to the fact its much cheaper than Pennhip and I can work my bill off  but I would like to OFA the Pennhip dogs I have and see what kind of results I get. |
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