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Ph1ngering
Alpha Dog
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 907
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 Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: Ataxia discussion.. |
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What is ataxia?
Simply said, ataxia occurs when the body is out of balance. Symptoms of ataxia include: wobbliness, buckling leg joints, a drunken, staggering gait, lack of coordination, a tilted head carriage, tripping, falling, or collapsing. |
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showdawgs
Puppy
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 73
Location: Central, georgia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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I found it!!
What about carriers? I am concidering a breeding, and what to watch my step. This will be my first Amstaff litter, so wanting to be causious!! Before any bashing on me starts, yes on the health testing. 
Any help on lines would be helpful. |
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Ph1ngering
Alpha Dog
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 907
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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A great site for information on this topic is the Staffordshire Terrier Club of America - www.amstaff.org
From there site:
If Amstaff ataxia is inherited, why do we only see occasional affected dogs and why are several generations skipped sometimes?
Based on our statistical analysis of pedigrees, we believe that this disease is a recessive disease. By this we mean that an animal must have 2 copies (one from each parent) of the abnormal (mutated) gene to cause signs of the disease. If they only have one copy of the gene they appear to be normal. As a result, apparently normal parents, each of which have one gene for the disease (making them hidden carriers of the disease) can produce a mix of affected and normal pups if bred with other carriers. This means that they can be bred over and over again without problem, it is only when they are crossed with another carrier that you can get affected offspring. Even then there is only a 25% chance that a dog will inherit copies of the abnormal gene from both parents.
To add to this already confusing picture, affected dogs may not develop signs until they are over 8 years of age (most start to show signs between 4 and 6 years of age) and so the breeder may well not know that they have produced affected dogs as they can be so widely scattered by the time they show signs.
Finally, the signs shown by dogs can vary in severity and because this is a new and relatively rare disease, it may not be recognized by the veterinarian. As there is no simple diagnostic test that confirms the disease at present, this makes diagnosis even more difficult.
All of this factors conspire to make it difficult to know precisely which dogs in a litter are affected and make it difficult to be certain of the mode of inheritance. The only way to be 100% sure is to do test breedings between known affected dogs and keep all the offspring and watch them over at least 8 years: truly a slow and expensive process. |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: va
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:49 am Post subject: |
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(((This will be my first Amstaff litter, so wanting to be causious!! Before any bashing on me starts, yes on the health testing.))))
You got to remember. No matter what you do or how you do it. You will be bashed. Someone out there will find that one reason. You do your own thing. Make your own opinion that you have no problem living with. You please yourself and not others. It will go great for you. You can't please everyone.
Ataxia will mostly show up by the age 4. Usually they say if the dog is over four then they are ok. That is only what I read and I was told.
There are a few in the wood lines. I will check and see what I can come up with. It popped up and probably most lines back in the day. Just need to breed as far away from it as you can.IMO |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: va
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Not written By Us....
Many of you have asked about the ataxia project and its updates. It is frustrating to have to go through the baby steps it takes in order to really get a project off the ground, but there is good news.<br /><br />To recap, the study started with one family of affected dogs. The health committee approached a neurologist, Dr Natasha Olby, whom we were told may be interested in taking us on (she is English with an affinity for Staffy Bulls, and owns AmStafs too!). She told us that she would need to first establish that it was definitely hereditary and the probable mode of inheritence. We sent her the info/peds that we had, and her technicians took over with data collection, anonymously, after that. Fortunately, she got good response from the AmStaf community. We also began fundraising efforts, with the AKC matching what we donated. <br /><br />To get to the big bucks, it is helpful to have a bad/fatal disease that afflicts multiple breeds. Fortunately for AmStafs, Old English Sheepdogs, Border Collies, Scotties and others also experience the same type of degenerative ataxia. Recently she was awarded an $80,000 grant, which is great. Ultimately, the goal is to develop a blood test for the disease.<br /><br />Dr Olby has indicated that of the several breeds involved in the study, she has gotten the most info and the best response from the AmStaf breeders ! Unfortunately, she believes that an estimate (based on pedigree analysis) of potential carrier dogs to be 40%. She gets about 1 ataxic dog a month that joins the study. So think of how many are actually afflicted a month if one actually makes it to her. She has also said that she has seen it in all major lines, but I am not sure she has an idea of what we call a "line" (after all, don't we conflict here ourselves!).<br /><br />She does get lots of calls about vestibular dogs. She advises that all dogs with any neuro signs be examined by a neurologist. Degenerative ataxia affects the cerebellum, which is in turn connected to the vestibular system. It is entirely possible to see what appears to be vestibular signs in an ataxic dog. BTW, the term ataxia is misleading. Ataxia means unbalanced gait, a symptom, but we (Staf people) often just say ataxia as a shorthand for degenerative spinocerebellar ataxia, a disease.<br /><br />I have spoken with someone who, at the start of the project, contacted me with a vestibular dog (head tilt, facial paralysis, as well as other things). The dog died at a normal age of 12, still with balance issues. Since then, she has had diagnoses of affected ataxic dogs in her program. She has the Tonkawa Devil Dan X Sentinels EZ in her foundation stock. Always have a NEUROLOGIST examine your dog if you are seeing neuro signs. They can usually determine just from a detailed exam whether the symptoms are cerebellar in nature, peripheral (vestibular), or both. They can't definitively diagnose our kind of ataxia, but they can tell you if the problem has any cerebellar involvement, which is indicative of a problem in that area.<br /><br />So, we are challenged here. The disease can manifest itself anywhere from early to late mid age (2 to  . The disease can wax and wane. <br />Meaning, dogs do not have to progress to not eating and falling over and such. Perhaps their disease will stop when they have mild problems negotiating turns or sudden movements. They could live like that to a normal old age. Or it could advance quickly, and they need to be euthanized at 8. The disease does not always kill our dogs, but the symptoms can cause anorexia (can't find food bowl) or injury. I would suspect most dogs are put down before they are completely incapacitated.<br /><br />Another huge challenge appears to be that we have alot of dogs exhibiting purely vestibular issues. I spoke with Dr Olby regarding this, and she joked that this should be the next topic we take on, that's how much she has heard of it. Old dog vestibular syndrome, now more commonly called peripheral vestibular syndrome, seems to be common in many breeds as well as the mixed population. Dr Olby stated that while neurologists see and suspect that there can be a familial involvement to some vestibular issues, no one has actually studied it and published an article on a "syndrome" yet. I suspect because it affects mostly older dogs, they recover and live mostly unaffected, and it is not lifethreatening or debilitating, it is clearly less of a hot topic.<br /><br />So, lets talk about vestibular disease. From what I have read (I will copy and paste some actual articles for you all to read yourselves) this is a description of symptoms, not an actual disease process. The disease process could be inner ear infection/inflammation, tick borne disease, high blood pressure, all sorts of interesting and widely variable causes you all can read about. Many dogs seem to experience an event, sometimes strokelike. In other words, the vestibular signs are acute, they happen suddenly (unlike most degenerative ataxic dogs. Ataxic dogs can experience sudden onset after an event like anesthesia though). Most dogs recover rapidly, and are pretty much normal within a matter of days to weeks. Some may be left with a residual head tilt and slight ataxia (inncoordination). Most often it is a single event, sometimes it can be seen to happen more than once (from the stuff I read, dogs with unresolved inner ear issues, for example, may come off antiobiotics and experience an event later). <br /><br />Phew! I am tired and in need of more coffee! In any case, I hope that this was more constructive/productive than the way I initiated the discussion earlier. We can't bash dogs, but now that the disease is out there, we really really need to be vigilant. So what can the average breeder do to decrease the odds of producing the disease? 1).Start by breeding older dogs if at all possible. 2)Do not breed any dog with neuro issues without a clear from a NEUROLOGIST period. 3). Inform puppy buyers that this is a disease that can be found in Stafs as well as hip and knee problems. 7 or 8 years down the road, they will know to look for it and call you. Keep in touch with them! 4)Know your pedigrees, meaning, pay attention to what you are doing 8 generations back. Make some sense of your breeding program, so that if you do encounter a problem, there is some rhyme or reason to the linebreeding/inbreeding you have done so that perhaps you can actually find a suspect. This could save you from either producing tons more affected dogs or carriers because you don't know what to avoid, or dumping your whole program because you can't figure out where it may be coming from. That being said, avoid linebreeding on the pedigrees we have talked about! Those pedigrees are present in many many kennels today, avoid inbreeding on those dogs and their parents as a big start. It will decrease the frequency of the allele in your program if you don't have it anywhere else. Inbreed/linebreed and you will increase the frequency. We don't know, those few dogs or their parents/siblings could be the exact pinpoints to the problem. 5)Participate in the study. If you have a dog with symptoms confirmed by a neurologist, go to the STCA website and find Dr Olby's contacts. Get info to her! Right now she is still in need of relatives of affected dogs. If your dog is not affected but you know you have a sibling/get/parent, she needs your data whether the dog is affected or not. 6)Recognize that despite the challenges we discussed above and others, and that we really really need to be able to test for the disease to reduce it, you may not stick your head in the sand and breed thoughtlessly. I hope that enough people are able to talk honestly about this that constructive peer pressure will not enable anyone to play ignorant.<br />7) Finally, if you have the fortitude and the willingness, certainly make your knowledge of an affected dog a public fact. The health committee can not only not do this for ethical reasons, we no longer have any info ourselves. If you are the breeder of a dog and wish to share your pedigree publicly (with the owners permission too), it would do the AmStaf world a great service. It will only take one person stepping forward, instead of stepping back, and being accepted with gratitude and supportive peer pressure to really give us REAL tools to combat the disease.<br /><br /> |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: va
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| The bitch that produced the two litters of affected pups was:<br /><br />Ch Keystone's Redsky of Fraja EC "Zima"<br />Zima was daughter to Ch Fraja EC Zelda(mom). Zelda was daughter to Ch Roadhouse's El Toro Valiente & Ch Fraja EC Sonny Girl, and sired by: Ch Fraja EC Young Rider who was sired by Ch Fraja EC Ruff Rider and Ch Fraja EC Shadow Chaser.<br /><br />Zima was bred to Ch Benmar's Macho of Roadhouse to produce the Ataxic litter. Macho was Ch Roadhouse's El Toro Valiente bred to Ch Herring's Roaring Rose. Rosie was Ch Rocket's Roaring Thunder bred to Marin's Rosa.<br /><br />The 2nd time Zima was bred, she was bred to a dog named Ch Sair's Cool Breeze Kachina "Otter" Otter was sired by Ch Scott's Boy Wonder, and out of Ch Blue Moon Turn On The Redlit. I was told that he was pretty heavily Woods bred, but I DONT know that for a fact. Does anyone out there recognise this pedigree or the kennel names on this dog? There were Ataxic puppies in this litter as well.<br /><br />I bred my bitch Angel...Ch Raging Moon's Fire and Ice; directly to Macho, and had no affected puppies...apparently, they are carriers though. Angel was out of Ch Touch O Class Daddy's Girl, who was sired by Ch Sindelar's Touch O Class Orion and out of Ch Touch O Class Paisley Posie. Her sire was Ch Talk O The Town-RM's Rocky, who was out of Ch Sindelar's Misty Mudd, and sired by Ch Nightlord's Donner, CD. Angel was bred two other times, and didnt produce it in those litters either. One of those breedings was to Ch Fraja EC Thundercloud, the other was to her sire Rocky.<br /><br />Thats all that I know.<br /><br />The only way to make this work, is to share information openly. If 40% of the population is affected, how do we fix this?????????? |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: va
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Hope the above info will help and show some dogs for everyone. I personally don't think we will fix this issue. We have heart issues that haven't got better and that should be way easier to fix then ATAXIA. JMO. |
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Kelley KS ASTs
Puppy
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 46
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Ataxia scars the *beep* out of me. That is one reason I waited to bred Turk when he was 5 and Jessie when she was 61/2. That is another reason I am waiting to breed my girls until they are 3 or 4. My understanding is Ataxia can show signs as early as 4 or as late as 6. |
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Ph1ngering
Alpha Dog
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 907
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| From what I have read its comon to develop between 4-6 but has developed as late as 8... |
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shadyblueamstaffs
Alpha Dog
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1219
Location: Missouri USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Gaffs California Zima X Sierras Smith and Wesson- this breeding produced ataxic offspring.
Benmar's Macho of Roadhouse X Keystone's Redsky of Fraja EC- this breeding produced ataxic offspring.
Sair's Cool Breeze Kachina X Keystone's Redsky of Fraja EC- this breeding produced ataxic offspring.
willynwood knight watchman X willynwood gold standard- this breeding produced ataxic offspring.
I have more but still have to find them, I also have these peds put together from sitstay that I can email to someone if needed. |
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shadyblueamstaffs
Alpha Dog
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1219
Location: Missouri USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| showdawgs wrote: |
I found it!!
What about carriers? I am concidering a breeding, and what to watch my step. This will be my first Amstaff litter, so wanting to be causious!! Before any bashing on me starts, yes on the health testing.
Any help on lines would be helpful. |
I wouldn't say that there are suspect lines, but research has narrowed it down to known affecteds and carrier dogs. I hate to say lines when talking about ataxia because people get so upset. Just because some woods or some sierra or white rock or fraja etc etc, doesn't mean they are all affected.
I don't think anyone will bash you for wanting to do a breeding, you look like you do plenty with your dogs.  |
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shadyblueamstaffs
Alpha Dog
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1219
Location: Missouri USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ruffian Bo Tie & Tux's was affected.
Ruffian Bo Tie & Tux's X Sentinel's Just E Zee This breeding produced alot of ataxic offspring. Every puppy was either an affected or a carrier, depending on if just e zee was an affected or carrier.
Ruffian Blue bandit of york is one of the offspring, and he was either affected or a carrier. If Sentinel's Just E Zee was affected as well, then all the offspring would be affecteds from that breeding. She was at the very least a carrier.
Tonkawa Devil Dan X Brandy Fleming- this breeding produced ataxic offspring.(this is the breeding bo tie & tux is from)
Garret's Revelation X Little Rascals Rowdy Roxanne- this breeding produced ataxic offspring.
Other breedings that produced ataxic offspring:
Tex's Felix X Haure
Tex's Hey Paco Diablo X Irma Du Grande Molosse
Irun Des Eaux Rouges X Look Du Grande Molosse
Jerry Du Grande Molosse X Laike Du Grande Molosse
I also have these pedigrees for anyone not familiar with them.
Once in a blue moon was also bred and produced ataxic pups. |
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Meadowbrooks
Alpha Dog
Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 1681
Location: va
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| It is just in all the lines. I think the lines that we don't think it is in, IS. People just kept it on a down low. Just like they are doing with hearts problems.IMO |
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shadyblueamstaffs
Alpha Dog
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 1219
Location: Missouri USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Meadowbrooks wrote: |
| It is just in all the lines. I think the lines that we don't think it is in, IS. People just kept it on a down low. Just like they are doing with hearts problems.IMO |
Considering there are five major lines in amstaffs, just from the breedings I named, that about covered all five lines, so you are exactly right Larry, ataxia is in every line.
I wish more people would be open about health issues becasue it would really help to fix the problems. I must be dreaming to think that could happen some day. LMFAO |
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Ph1ngering
Alpha Dog
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 907
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Well I think getting breeders togather like this is the first step..
Breeders with the same common interest and aren't afraid of telling the full truth about their dogs with take this breed to the next level..
It may also allow other breeders to speak up about thier dogs, if they see they wont be bashed and kicked for being honest..
In the end we are all HUMAN... |
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